Professional wrestling since 2001 has existed in two silos: the mighty WWE, and everyone else. No promotion is likely to catch the ever-growing WWE anytime soon (in 2016 it brought in $729 million in revenue and had its highest profit since 2010, according to the Wrestling Observer). At the same time, the WWE is no longer seen as the end goal for some wrestlers. Many choose to not sign exclusive contracts with WWE (see Zack Sabre Jr., Kota Ibushi, Cody Rhodes), opting for the flexibility of working for multiple, smaller promotions—and often finding they can make just as good a living.

The nexus of non-WWE wrestling in the U.S. is happening most visibly at Ring Of Honor, by many measure the second-largest pro wrestling promotion in the country. It’s a company that has seen its touring business on the rise in recent years, buoyed by a roster of ROH stalwarts plus outside talent from its relationship with New Japan Pro-Wrestling. The promotion is currently embarked on a sold-out four-city tour that features some of the best in-ring performers in the world: Kenny Omega, The Young Bucks, Kushida, Minoru Suzuki, Marty Scurll, and ROH world champion Cody.

Ahead of its Global Wars Chicago pay-per-view Sunday, The A.V. Club spoke to Ring Of Honor C.O.O. Joe Koff on where he plans on taking his company in 2018 and beyond.

The A.V. Club: Is the term “indie wrestling” a pejorative?

Joe Koff: I don’t see it as pejorative at all. When we bought the company from Cary Silkin back in 2011, Ring Of Honor was considered one of the top independents in the country. We’ll always be labeled as that because that’s how we’re remembered, and sometimes memories are much stronger than present tense. But I hardly look at us as an independent promotion. We’re in the middle of a four-day, four-city tour. We have weekly television. We have incredibly distribution. We’re on internationally. I don’t think we’ll ever get that [indie connotation] out of the hardcore fan’s mind. I’m not insulted by it by any means. But when you lump everything into that category, then we’re either at the top of that category or we shouldn’t be included in it at all.

AVC: Ring Of Honor, by all accounts, looks to be doing healthy business. At the same time, you’re bringing in big names like Kenny Omega, and you’re signing established stars like Cody Rhodes to multi-year deal. I guess this is a chicken-or-the-egg question, but which one allowed the other to happen?

JK: There’s a lead lag in business. We had to establish ourselves as a viable brand and company to attract talent to let them know we’re not “that indie promotion.” We had to overcome that. It really didn’t take long—we’re owned and backed by a huge company, Sinclair Broadcast Group, who’s been innovative in local news and now in wrestling. There’s a natural skepticism, going back to indie kind of wrestling world. How many promotions have we seen come and gone since Ring Of Honor even started? So you have to deliver.

Part of the delivery, and I think it’s what helped Ring Of Honor established itself, is our ability to have distribution. And every time we’ve added a new market due to Sinclair’s acquisition strategy, Ring Of Honor has been in that market. We just began in Montana. We have that ability and that gives us a lot of strength, and it also creates a barrier of entry for others to try to emulate that.