JOHN TATUM

-What were your thoughts on the feud with Scott Casey and Sunshine?

The feud helped launch the careers for myself & John Tatum. Tatum was a preliminary wrestler in Mid Atlantic waiting for a break. I was a complete novice. By allowing Tatum to work with Scott Casey would help him in learning by working nightly. Plus Tatum learned how to control the crowd for heat, since the Dallas fans were so rabid.

Sunshine taught me & carried me in the ring. She was so easy & safe to work with in the ring in comparison to Dark Journey. Our spots in the ring were simple, but she knew when it was time for us to bring the house down. Tatum & Casey would have their match. Sunshine & I would build up anticipation for me to finally get beaten up by Sunshine. Then by the finish, Sunshine would beat me up for the big pop. Tatum would usually roll up Casey for the win & to retain our heat.

Sunshine was such an instrumental person in my career. She taught me how to work & teach me psychology in building things up for the finish. We would socialize outside of the ring on a few occasions during the kayfabe era. I once threw a party & she had to climb to my bedroom window to hang out with me, while everybody else was hanging out in the living room.

Unfortunately when Tatum & I had the split up in UWF, we forgot an important mantra that “personal issues draw money”. Unfortunately we missed out on extending the jilted lovers feud with myself & Eddie Gilbert VS. Sunshine & Tatum. This was made worst when Micheal Hayes brought this up on a WWE Legends Round Table that Sunshine was left out in having a real program due to personal heat with Tatum/Gilbert/myself. If it’s any real consolation, at least Sunshine got to work with the Freebirds in the UWF.

- What are your thoughts on Sunshine?

Every valet & Diva owes Sunshine a thank you for being one of the pioneers for the valet VS. valet feud against Precious in 1984. Granted Ken Mantell was the visionary that put the program together. But it was Precious & Sunshine that made the program so hot that many territories would try to duplicate their own variation of the feud. The valet Vs. valet feud was so hot that Ken Mantell would try to reprise it again in WCCW with myself & Sunshine that drew well, but not nearly the success of the original one with Precious.

-Do you think that you and Tatum were pushed at the right level in World Class? How much further could you have gone with a main feud against the Von Erichs?

John Tatum is such an underrated performer. It burns me up that people focused more on me then his goofy persona in which he would try to get attention in order to please me. John Tatum on his own was just another hand in the ring. Tatum with the right tag team partner or valet could have been a decent hand to have on a card. Unfortunately he never really found the right mix to emphasize his own talents that was overlooked by many people.

I remember prior to Gino Hernandez’ death, Gino approached Tatum with the idea of joining up with the Dynamic Duo. I seriously think Tatum would have learned so much with Hernandez & Chris Adams. At the very least, he could have gotten some major league experience in working the main events with the hottest heels in WCCW.

I was watching some old UWF TV from 1986. If I was a booker, I would have made John Tatum & Buddy Landell a tag team. Landell was just floundering in UWF at the time. I think a program with themselves against The Fantastics would have done well. If you wanted to elevate Landell & Tatum even more as a tag team, I would have added Baby Doll as their valet after she finished up with Jim Crockett Promotions & being starved out in Central States. The bottom line was there was a ton of untapped talent & possibilities that could have been done with Tatum.

-I loved the dynamic between you and Tatum with Tatum’s every action in the ring as an attempt to please you, the unsatisfied girlfriend.

Simplest explanation was art imitating life. I thought WWE had a shot in recreating a similar dynamic with Zack Ryder & Rosa Mendes. There combination was better then what creative presently got both talents doing right now.  Even a possible heel Tiffany constantly bitching at Drew McIntyre would have some form of potential.

-What led to you leaving World Class? Do you think there was ever a chance at a main event run there?

I love Fritz Von Erich to death. Unfortunately the bottom line was money. Bill Watts was giving out those bull shit contracts with guaranteed money in which would later be voided out in less then a year when he sold out to Jim Crockett. Plus Watts was looking to expand his territory past the Mid South area. He was adding parts of the North East, California, Tennessee, Georgia, etc with his increasing syndication television network that had 70% TV penetration in the U.S.

I was also loyal to Ken Mantell in being a booker. The end result was myself, Tatum, Freebirds, Sunshine, One Man Gang, Misdsing Link, Chris Adams, & other wrestlers would follow Mantell to the UWF for the lure of bigger money & a bigger territory. It tears me up for over 24 years to think that by Watts talent raiding Fritz in that manor was a major catalyst to eventually killing WCCW. Fritz was one of the greatest promoters & such a nice guy. Unfortunately I would had starved if I stayed in WCCW after the UWF exodus & lost the opportunity to go else where.

FREEBIRDS

-  Did you ever watch the Freebirds-Von Erichs feud prior to working in Texas? What were your thoughts?

I watched Michael Hayes & Terry Gordy in Georgia Championship Wrestling as a fan. One of the first angles that I can recall was when Hayes & Gordy were feuding with each other. I remember Hayes attacking Gordy and putting a baby bonnet on his head as one of the angles that hooked me as a wrestling fan.

I watched The Von Erich’s prior to my stint in WCCW when I lived in Georgia. I remember Kevin von Erich doing some shots on Georgia TV to build up his name for national exposure. The first time I saw The Von Erich’s in their glory was the TV after David Von Erich died. The news of David’s death was huge. The out pour of grieving fans is unfathomable when you compare it against the weekly deaths that we ponder for a moment & then go on with the rest of our day in 2010. This was due to accidental wrestling deaths were not common place & the fact that David was only in his twenties at the time of his death.

Tatum & I saw how hot the TV was in Charlotte & we both realized that we better haul ass to Dallas. The territory looked hot & young talent had a better shot in breaking out, since Charlotte was sort of cliquish if you wanted to get noticed.

Between the young heels that were featured in WCCCW [Gino Hernandez, Chris Adams, Freebirds, & others] & the young baby faces [Von Erich’s] this was the territory at the time for unproven talent to get their break. The music videos & production values were slick. The ring entrance music was hip & relevant. The Von Erich’s were equivalent to a boy band in drawing power & popularity. Unfortunately most boy bands have a 3 year shelf life before their fan base dwindles.

-  You worked with the Freebirds in World Class and Mid South. Can you give your thoughts on each member of the group?

Michael Hayes is one of the greatest talkers in the biz. Hayes carried himself like a superstar with his ring music, persona, music videos, & rock star looks. His interviews were always awesome.

Micheal Hayes was equivalent to David Lee Roth in charisma & being over the top. Michael by himself was decent as a performer, but Michael with Gordy & Roberts were amazing.  Hayes was the glue that made the Freebirds in to drawing cards & heat magnets.

Hayes was a great heel announcer on the UWF TV show & WCW Main Event. I would still take Michael Hayes as an announcer in 2010 VS. some of the geeks that WWE utilizes. If I had it my way, I would have Jim Ross & Michael Hayes as announcers.

Terry Gordy was an amazing worker. He was the monster of The Freebirds. Gordy was the worker that beat the hell out of the baby faces & guzzled the jobbers. His interviews were

mediocre. In the ring, he was top ten in the world in the 1980’s

Just a couple of days ago, I saw an old NWA 9/89 match with Terry Gordy & Terry Funk VS. Sting & Steve Williams that was easily three stars. If Gordy wasn’t tied down with All Japan, he might had been an even bigger player in the U.S. & kept The Freebirds going for a few more years.

My biggest advice for Husky Harris is to study tapes of Terry Gordy if he wants to be a main eventer in the immediate future.

Buddy Roberts was such an underappreciated worker. Roberts was the worker that sold & took all of the bumps for the baby face comebacks. He was also the one to do the job, since Gordy was too tough to take the pin fall & Hayes was the heat magnet. By beating Roberts, the baby face got a pin on The Freebirds, but at the same time you still wanted to see Hayes get beaten up.

When you really break it down, each member of The Freebirds needed each other in order to make the whole team work. It would be like taking the best rock band & you change the whole dynamic if you take out a drummer, bass guitarist, etc.

Hayes was the heat magnet & promo man. You needed him as the heel protagonist to get the program over. He made the fans clamor to see him finally pinned or beaten up. Gordy was like “the big brother” that you had to go thru to get to the annoying “little brother”. Gordy was like the fat-bully that could beat anybody up. He also knew when to sell in order to make any baby face shine in the ring. Take away Gordy & you killed the glue that made the Freebirds look dangerous in the ring. Buddy was just a bumping machine that made the baby faces look like a million bucks before The Freebirds took control of the match.

THE VON ERICHS

David- You arrived after David passed away. However, did you ever get to see him wrestle prior to working in World Class? When you arrived, did it feel like David’s shadow was cast on the company?

I only had seen bits & pieces of David. Legend had it that he was eventually going to be the NWA champion. I could easily see that happening in WCCW as a short term champion, since Texas was extremely hot. Looking back on it, I doubt it would ever have happened. Most promoters wanted Flair as the touring heel champion. I’m not sure if David as a touring world champion would have worked in the other territories, since he was never really a star for Mid Atlantic or Georgia. I’m sure that David as a touring champion would have worked for Mid South, Houston, St. Louis, Central States, & a few other territories. Unfortunately I can’t see him drawing in Alabama, Mid Atlantic, Georgia, Oregon, & other places. Basically you wanted the champion that was the most recognizable based on previous stints to be the touring champion.

David’s death didn’t cast a shadow on WCCW until after Mike’s death. It was always portrayed that David died a hero’s death based on what version of his death was given that day.

Kerry – I have always felt Kerry was a great wrestler while conventional wisdom has said he could only be carried by better wrestlers. What are your thoughts on Kerry the wrestler?

Kerry could be carried to look like one of the best wrestlers of the world. He had the likeable-dumb jock type of personality that connected with everybody. He was the most marketable based on his looks that graced plenty of magazine covers. He was pretty enough to draw the girls, but not to pretty enough to alienate the male fans. He had that humble-likable personality that gave him a pass in being a subpar promo man.

He literally had the looks of a rock star & at one point had such a connection with the fans that nobody in this generation of wrestling got it in comparison. Unfortunately everything after the motor cycle accident was downhill for Kerry. His work rate & drawing power was never the same. The year on the shelf & further erosion of WCCW made him sort of passé when he returned. He was a star, but of a dying company that was no longer hot. Plus he meant even less as a touring outsider for outside bookings.

Kevin- Kevin was said to be the most out of control wrestler. Not just outside the ring, but inside as well. Did Tatum ever relay anything to you that Kevin was reckless or stiff in the ring? Any stories of Kevin outside the ring?

Nobody ever vocally complained about Kevin. Simple reason, you would be out of a job. If he was stiff, nobody was going to bitch about it until after they left the territory. If Kevin was stiff, the extra pay in being a main eventer would probably erase any additional bumps & bruises.

Mike – I always felt like the way Fritz set him up as the “best” Von Erich, he was setting him up for failure. Did he ever indicate to you he didn’t want to wrestle?

 Mike was a nice guy. I honestly think that he had more of a passion for the production side then being an on screen talent. I can see the lure in being a mega celebrity based on the success of his brothers & being the son of the promoter.

Chris Adams & Gino Hernandez –

As someone who has observed both guys, can you compare and contrast them as wrestlers? As people? As someone who was there when Gino passed away, what was your reaction and the reaction of others when his death was announced?

Gino was the real deal between his on camera persona & his actual out of the ring persona.  The platinum credit card, expensive clothes, sports cars, etc were really Gino. Just like the persona he played on TV, he did live in the fast lane to the fullest which lead to his untimely death. I just started watching bits & pieces of South West Championship Wrestling with Gino & Tully. If both wrestlers had their heads screwed on correctly, they had the chemistry to draw against any baby face in any territory in the early 1980’s.

To demonstrate how similar Gino was to his ring persona. I remember asking him about how much his Louis Vuitton luggage cost him, Gino replied “it doesn’t matter, you can’t afford it”. A total heel all the way thru, which is the reason he was so successful. He actually became nice to me prior to his death & wanted Tatum & myself to be part of The Dynamic Duo. Just the possibility of us being teamed with Gino & Chris would have elevated us to main event status. It would have possibly extended The Dynamic Duo VS. Von Erich’s program for a few more months. You could have even had The Dynamic Duo VS. The Freebirds in a heel VS. heel program & tied it in with The Von Erich’s.

Chris Adams was very nice to me. I always got along with his ex wives in Jeannie Clark [who I still talk to] & Toni. I always found him to be a versatile worker in the sense that he could be a top heel or baby face for WCCW. Unfortunately by the time Chris got to the UWF, the company was absorbed in to Jim Crockett Promotions.

I always appreciated that Chris would book me to work on his independent shows in 1988. I saw the DVD documentary, “Gentleman’s Choice” & I was lucky to not been exposed to the dark side of Chris and the later bad choices he would make in his life. I prefer to remember Chris throwing cereal all over my hotel room in Israel in a jokingly manor & not the Chris Adams who would super kick a hotel worker on the same trip that  almost got the WCCW crew in serious trouble over it.

My biggest memory of The Dynamic Duo was working on the Cotton Bowl show in which Adams & Gino lost their hair to Kerry & Kevin. The house was huge & the visual of the heels finally getting their heads shaved was a memory that lasted me for over twenty five years.

World Class was known for some of its famous managers. What are your thoughts on the following managers?

Skandor Akbar:

Skandor off camera was such a funny person. Skandor could get any of his wrestlers over. Plus he was a great mentor to anybody who wanted to sit under the learning tree. Skandor was so helpful to so many wrestlers as a mentor.

Gary Hart:

One of the most underrated managers of the 1980’s. Most people like the quick witted Bobby Heenan, Jim Cornette, or Paul Heyman type of manager. Gary was the type of manager that personified no redeemable value in ever wanting to cheer him & carried legitimate heat in Texas. I found his NWA promos in 1989 to be much underrated.

Percy Pringle:

I love Percy to death. Whatever success & longevity he earned in wrestling brings a smile to my face. Percy is a great father. I even remember his son taking his first steps in the ring in WCCW.

World Class was known for its monster savages? What were your thoughts on some of the guys who played these roles? 

Abdullah the Butcher:

I never really got to know or work with Abby until WCW. WCCW used him with Brody. They had their typical blood & guts brawl that filled the hardcore violence content that The Von Erich’s wouldn’t provide. Unfortunately you couldn’t really do a blow off or do much of a program with Abby & Brody due to them refusing to do any jobs. This was due to Japan being their main priority & WCCW was just a gig in between tours.

I know Abby worked a brief program with Kevin after I left for the UWF. It counteracted a UWF show as the main event in Dallas. The lack of a clean finishes by Abby limited what you could do with him.  

My biggest memory of Abbby was traveling with him in WCW. Dusty Rhodes would rib me by having the office book Abby & me as traveling buddies on planes. I would get the window seat & be squished to death by Abby in the middle seat. The visual image of my face squished against the airplane window brought Dusty great laughs. In all seriousness, Abby treated me very well, despite throwing me in ice cold water trough at a Clash Of Champions by orders from Dusty.

Missing Link:

Nice guy. He actually tried reaching out to me before he died for me to find Jesus, despite me being Jewish.  He knew how to work his gimmick. Missing Link was booked pretty decently by Ken Mantell by linking him with Sunshine & Dark Journey.

Kamala:

I was never really around him much. I liked the gimmick in the 1980’s. But it was a different era in which peopled believed that their savage heel characters were legitimate. Even the biggest fan now got to laugh at the logistics of a Ugandan savage going thru the airport in a skirt, war paint, & being accompanied by a masked handler. Kamala was a mega heel that was the next step under Abby. I guess he can be looked upon more fondly if you were a kid & you believed that his shtick was legitimate.

Kabuki:

I actually watched Kabuki as a fan on Georgia Championship Wrestling. Minus his face paint, colorful back story, & Gary Hart he was actually a pretty colorless worker based upon the Central States stuff I saw of him. Add the back story & Gary Hart being a total heat magnet, you created a mega heel that drew money against Dusty Rhodes in Georgia. Plus he worked some main events in WCCW. I thought Great Muta did the gimmick a million times better in WCW, until they totally dropped the ball on him.

Did you ever meet Bruiser Brody? What was he like...?

First off it was a tragedy that Brody was murdered. It was a bigger tragedy that Capital Sports Promotions was able to manipulate the investigation & the trial to allow Jose Gonzalez to get off for self defense. This is despite Jose initiating the confrontation and being armed with a knife.

I had zero interaction with Brody on a personal or professional level. Brody had a great relationship with Gary Hart. Fritz helped Brody to get booked in All Japan at a time that he was black listed after his WWWF stint, so Brody was always grateful. Brody did look out for The Von Erich’s on a personal level & did broker their New Japan deal [granted he got a piece of the pie].